It is simply a return to a human being’s original condition. Ego dissolution is Soto's bread and butter, and everything else really doesn't get all that much attention from Soto. Chan). Another big difference was the keisaku. Great is an understatement. Là, il séjourne durant un an au monastère de Jingdesi, sur le mont Tiantong, et découvre ainsi l'école Chán Caodong. C'est en 1223, alors que le zen japonais est dominé par l'école Rinzai, que le maître zen Dōgen se rend avec un des disciples d'Eisai en Chine. That's not what I mean though but rather it's informal. Unless they catch you sleeping when you should be meditating. This serves to jar the student right out of whatever comfort zone they think they might be developing. We all sat on zufu cushions and on elevated platforms. As opposed to what many people may think, in Soto Zen, Satori is not a special state of consciousness. IMO the character of the teacher and sangha matter more than the lineage, though once you get used to one way of doing things it can seem like a lot of effort to switch (like for me, not sitting in front of a wall feels bizarre, but I make do). e) r/zen is in a terrible shape due in part to misunderstanding of koans. The biggest difference to me was the atmosphere. Cao-dong) from Rinzai R-A (Chin. Soto zen contents itself more with the ideas it's presenting than with direct confrontation with a student, even if discussion of the ideas is likely to be met with some consternation. There is a trap here. It is depend on the person.). Also in the soto tradition the main lineage is dogen zenjis and his works which include the shobogenzo and shin shobogenzo whereas rinzai more revolves around hakuin zenji and his works which revived the rinzai tradition. In—in America, between Rinzai Zen and Sōtō Zen there—there must be some clear understanding of—of the two, or relationship of the two. Shunryū Suzuki-Roshi. Neben Zazen und Zeremonien spielt das Herz-Sutra beim Meditieren eine wichtige Rolle. Hier finden Sie Informationen zum Soto-Zen-Buddhismus, Veranstaltungen, Neuigkeiten, Videos und Orte an denen Sie Zazen praktizieren können. Satori is quick as lightning, and I think only by extinguishing the obscene desire for spiritual progress (by exhaustion/frustration or total denial of its products, those are the two methods on display here) is it obtained, so in that sense, Rinzai is going to produce a more definite and distinctive result, it's going to be more, there it is, whereas Soto is more apt to, say, dismiss the notion that you've been attaining anything at all. Perfect summation. Members in each lineage are displayed in a … Satori, Chinese Wu, in Zen Buddhism of Japan, the inner, intuitive experience of Enlightenment; Satori is said to be unexplainable, indescribable, and unintelligible by reason and logic. Read More, If you have visited any temple or shrine in Japan, there is a good chance... Read More, If you frequent Japanese Shinto shrines, you may have noticed that they are commonly... The keisaku, or “encouraging stick,” is a large paddle-like stick that a monk carries around the room. With regard to Japanese Rinzai and Soto there are differences — not so much in the Chinese forms of Zen (Ch. To me sitting is central. Im Unterschied dazu besteht die Hauptlehre der Soto-Schule in der immanenten, buddhistischen Natur aller Wesen, sowie der Identität von Übung und Erleuchtung. To find actual differences one better picks something from the Chinese side and something from the Japanese side. The monk will then tap each shoulder-blade area twice, making a total of four taps. Soto takes a more gradual approach - kind of like a flower opening. The fit isn't perfect, but the once-born, twice-born model does help to expose certain What more could you possibly need to know? Then, you must lean over and hold both your elbows on the floor, making your body into a ball shape. The monk will stand in front of you and you will bow to each other. I also have a hard time meditating around others but I think I'd find facing them especially odd if the eyes are open. Bei der Soto-Praxis handelt es sich um eine rezeptive Form des Meditieren, bei der Rinzai-Praxisum eine Meditationsform durch Konzentration. The Soto approach is to sit around and do absolutely nothing, (the self gets bore and leaves) whilst the Rinzai approach is to f#*k with ones mind (the self becomes so confused it eventually packs up and leaves) ... Ay caramba! However, the keisaku is not used as a punishment but rather as encouragement for you to wake up and concentrate. One is “to grasp or understand clearly”; the other is “to make real.”. However, I was able to see some significant differences between the two forms of zazen. I'm currently doing some reading but was wondering if anyone here had input. I appreciate the time it probably took for that reply. It then pairs this with a willingness to get 'down & dirty' in bombastic elements. Personally I think Rinzai is going to be a better method for most students who actually want to go to a temple and all that, but Soto does away with some chaff that Rinzai's historically used to clear away a lot of the bad ideas students have when they arrive. I felt that the taps were far harder and louder at Sojiji than at Kencho-ji. I'm not sure it matters much if at all. To say Rinzai "stresses" koans over Zazen would be inaccurate. With regard to Japanese Rinzai and Soto there are differences — not so much in the Chinese forms of Zen (Ch. M… Rinzai puts the emphasis on direct intuition (dhyana) of one's Buddha-nature while Soto preaches zazen (sitting Zen) in the faith that the practitioner is already a Buddha. L’Éveil ou Satori dans le Zen Soto est différente de celle de l'école Rinzai. b) The non-verbal understanding that allows to create koans and to interpret answers is difficult to pass along in a lineage. Zazen is then the natural unfolding of one's Buddha nature. a) The original koans were created in a very different cultural and psychological context. Il peut être comparé à la conscience d'un nouveau-né … Do nothing, know nothing, make absolutely no effort. I just find it hard to believe for so many reasons. While both Rinzai and Soto are both forms zazen, they are still very different. Hoping someone with more knowledge on the subject could provide some information on this. Hard to transmit a decent smack through a book unless there's someone there to pick the book up and really go at you with it. Soto is the passive hand of Zen, Rinzia the active hand. It's not that Soto practitioners don't use koans--we do--but not as an object of meditation, and not in any sort of formal curriculum. More information:http://www.everydayzen.org Nobody here mentioning the important stuff: Soto sits facing the wall. Apparently closing your eyes during meditation is uncommon because it allows your mind to daydream instead of focus, and there is also a good chance you will fall asleep. Another part about zazen that I had never heard of before was the keisaku. Hi every body.... We know that there is two school in Zen, Rinzai and Soto. This coincided with the Rinzai and Soto Zen traditions ‘abandoning’ the Vinaya Discipline for ordained monks and nuns because it was viewed as both ‘Indian’ and ‘Chinese’, and therefore ‘un-Japanese’ in nature. If you find that you cannot focus or are starting to feel tired, you raise your hands into “gassho,” which means placing your palms together as if you’re praying. Listen to this talk: Suzuki-roshi 69-07-00 . My teacher said that the clothing is a bit different between rinzai and soto. Read More, Earlier this week, I hopped aboard a train to Yokohoma and headed to Sojiji temple.... This zazen experience was much shorter, because it was not the only reason I was there. They meditate like there is no tomorrow. During his ongoing practice and development, he encountered a dilemma that caused him to move, more and more, out of the mainstream of the institutional Japanese Buddhism establishment. Hybrid Zen: Rinzai and Soto Merged Yasutani Hakuun (born in 1885) was an unusual Japanese student who became a monk at 11 years of age, was ordained (in Soto Zen) at 13, and attained kensho at 42. At Sojiji, to signal that you want to be tapped by the keisaku, you must tilt your head left, rather than place your hands in gassho like at Kencho-ji. It is accurate to say that Soto Zen considers the practice of Zazen to be the sole means of realization. Attaining 'nothing thought' or no-thought is very skilfull. To practice Rinzai-zen, I visited the Kencho-ji Temple in Kamakura. This was a very difficult position, not only for foreigners, but for most Japanese people as well. The most proper sitting position was to sit cross-legged with each foot on the opposite thigh. San Francisco. I'd be too easily sidetracked if they moved at the current point in my practice. Hybrid Zen: Rinzai and Soto Merged Yasutani Hakuun (born in 1885) was an unusual Japanese student who became a monk at 11 years of age, was ordained (in Soto Zen) at 13, and attained kensho at 42. Sometimes light but, nothing ever moving in my field of view. ), I realize that the differences between the two temples makes Sojiji seem frightening, but this is not at all the case. This was a sort of walking meditation, which I had never heard of before. I still sit alone in the dark usually. Rinzai emphasizes the first definition and Soto emphasizes the second, but each school acknowledges the validity of both. is a useful explanatory device to highlight certain differences between Rinzai and Soto Zen practice today, at least for those students of Zen who have hitherto thought only in terms of Rinzai-style koan Zen. Again I'm not sure it matters much. You're apt to get less in the way of koans, but be prepared to spend considerably more time on your keester, since Soto zen still considers zazen to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. This lineage chart displays the lineages of active members of the SZBA as of Sept 18, 2008. With some time, I've learned to appreciate a rather more definitive answer and the sudden shock of Rinzai, but then again, Alan Watts never smacked me from beyond the grave and he was a bodhisattva bar none, so maybe the Soto school is onto something. After two sessions, we were asked to walk twice around the outside of the temple while holding our hands in a specific position. As a group, we sat in zazen for 15-minute increments. Dieses ist die offizielle Seite des Soto-Zen-Buddhismus auf Englisch, Portugiesisch, Spanisch, Französisch, Italienisch und Deutsch. I actually think that I preferred the Soto-zen at Sojiji because the dark room and position facing the wall helped me focus much more on my meditation. At first, the idea of the keisaku was frightening to me. d) We Westerners believe we have a good meta-understanding of koans which undermines their power. The differences are in the relative importance in day-to-day practice. Soto says you are already already Buddha, so just sit and let your nature come forth. Rinzai puts the emphasis on direct intuition (dhyana) of one's Buddha-nature while Soto preaches zazen (sitting Zen) in the faith that the practitioner is already a Buddha. Both Rinzai and Soto Zen Buddhists study koans and practice Zazen. Rinzai Zen in Japan today is very much Hakuin Zen, and all living Rinzai Zen teachers are of Hakuin's O-to-kan teaching lineage. Rinzai s’est implanté durant l’ascension de la classe des bushi, bénéficiant du patronage des shoguns autant que de la cour impériale. as far as material differences between the two, you've already identified probably the key difference: Rinzai emphasizes a curriculum of koan practice while Soto does not. I don’t know about Obaku, but I do know the difference between Soto And Rinzai as personal experience. This... Despite what I had previously believed, I was told to keep my eyes open. Read More, There approximately 95,000 shrines and 86,000 temples in Japan. Rinzai Zen lineages 逓代伝法佛祖の名号 Teidai Denpō Busso no Myōgō . Also, all of us sat on the ground in a circle facing each other. Under the right conditions, and when cultivating tenderly, the mind will open of its own accord. If you see a description of zazen as "just sitting," Soto zen has really taken that and run with it. Read More, © 2021 Sanpai Japan - WordPress Theme by Kadence Themes. c) Students can and will google the answers. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyozan_Joshu_Sasaki?wprov=sfla1, There's a controversy regarding Sasaki, check his wiki, he was accused of engaging in sexual misconduct. But Soto Zen has never discarded the koan. I go to a Rinzai Zen Temple here in Seattle. The most important factors were to keep your back straight, shoulders back, and eyes focused at a 45-degree angle to the floor. It is comparable to the experience undergone by Gautama Buddha when he sat under the Bo tree and, as such, is the central Zen goal. The Tokyo Jissha and the Journey to Enlightenment. I'm currently reading the complete poison blossom from a thicket thorn which is a culmination of hakuin zenjis work amazing stuff!! By the end of the classes I felt a new level of understanding and respect for Buddhist monks and Buddhist followers. That's the major difference :D. Rinzai zen is rather famous for being, as Alan Watts said, more gutsy than other schools. The place I'm looking at is: http://www.dharmamountain.org/about.html. Just like a flower coming into bloom, it makes no sense to force anything. I have comforted myself in the endless texts of the Theravadans, sometimes content, but at present unwilling to dive directly into the ocean of Zen. Rinzai, one of two major Zen Buddhist sects in Japan; it stresses the abrupt awakening of transcendental wisdom, or enlightenment. Many of the differences I have found between Rinzai and Soto Zen have to do with practice, although I was not able to find any information on philosophical differences between the schools. We were told that if we could not do this position we could lower one or both legs. Do you think the Rinzai formal system of koans works in practice in a modern Western setting? The class at Kencho-ji focused very heavily on posture and sitting position. After he is finished, you must bow to each other once more. This abandoning of the Vinaya Discipline marks a significant deviation of the Japanese Zen tradition from its Chinese Ch’an origin. This past week I had the opportunity to attempt zazen meditation at both a Rinzai-zen school and a Soto-zen school. Definitely go if you can, because you will not find many differences between rinzai and soto anyways. I felt it odd that people were asking to be hit by a stick. So, what is the difference between... Dans Soto Zen, l’Éveil Bouddhiste n’est pas un état spécial de la conscience mais plutôt un retour à l'état originel de l’être humain. What … The monks explained how to sit and hold your hands, and throughout the entire experience monks would come and correct you if your positioning was wrong. (This is because when I practiced Rinzai-zen, there were just foreign people so it was for beigner but when I practice Soto-zen,there were a lot of japanese.they get used to do it. Soto Zen’s vision of Enlightenment or Satori is different than that of the Rinzai school. At Kencho-ji, we sat in a large open space that had doors open to the outside. Conversely, Rinzai puts more emphasis on … Also Rinzai is a little more intense and formal, Soto is a little more casual and spontaneous. Soto Zen Buddhist Association Lineage Chart by Charlie Korin Pokorny. The role of mediation for both Rinzai and Soto Zen is to prepare the mind for enlightenment. See also Zen for an overview of Zen, Chan Buddhism for the Chinese origins, and Sōtō, Rinzai and Ōbaku for the three main schools of Zen in Japan. It was crucial to keep your eyes focused and to move them as little as possible. Die Rinzai-Schule zeichnet sich durch das Zazen, die Gartenkunst, Tee-Zeremonien, Kampfkünste und die Koan-Arbeit aus. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, A reddit for all kinds of Buddhist teachings, Press J to jump to the feed. The only sangha around here is operated by two folks that trained under a "Kyozan Joshu Sasaki Roshi" in Rinzai Zen. During his ongoing practice and development, he encountered a dilemma that caused him to move, more and more, out of the mainstream of the institutional Japanese Buddhism establishment. Also many of the American Zen sanghas are blends of Soto and Rinzai so it’s increasingly less of a binary choice. 3) Soto Zen, the Japanese version of the Chinese … Soto Zen emphasizes that meditation, when properly executed, is equally suited for bringing about sudden enlightenment. While both zazen and koans are a part of both schools, in Soto there is more emphasis placed on zazen, while in Rinzai there is more emphasis on koans. I really connect with Sheng Yen's Linji style of Chan, predecessor of Rinzai. Doing nothing is doing something. Which one hits you with a stick of bamboo? Zoketsu Norman Fischer and Kathie Fischer about Soto and Rinzai Zen. DISTINGUISHING SOTO AND RINZAI ZEN: MANAS AND THE MENTAL MECHANICS OF MEDITATION Rui Zhu Philosophy Department, Lake Forest College Modern scholars have never successfully distinguished St -F1J (Chin. These are broad strokes I'm painting with. Both are valid and each is necessary for a complete understanding of just what “realization” is. To practice Soto-zen, I visited the Sojiji Temple in Yokohama. (This is my expeiemce. I definitely believe that it is a personal preference on which is better suited for a person, and I would greatly suggest to foreigners that they try both types of zazen so they can experience the differences themselves. Recommandé pour vous en fonction de ce qui est populaire • Avis I couldn't really say. I sit with a Sangha with a monk trained under the same Roshi, and I can tell you they are great. This place is a not-so-traditional version run out of what appears to be their home. Morning. Since the differences between these two schools is highly debated, I will explain only what I, an English-speaking foreigner, could plainly see as the differences.
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